The "Done with Church" Crowd - A Response to Aaron Carpenter

For whatever reason a series of articles concerning church attendance surfaced this week. I posted one of them on my Facebook page, and a small  and enjoyable discussion unfolded. I did not know who would respond, nor did I know how anyone would comment. Normally, at least based upon my experience discussing this topic, I receive comments from pastors or longtime church attendees. Normally, those comments run the typical religious gamut of irate irrationality. This time was different… so far. A (former) pastor did respond. To me, not just any pastor, a pretty good friend of mine from college/seminary. He stunned me. He did not support the church, he left it all behind. It’s not so stunning that people leave their churches, it happens all of the time. Pastors on the other hand, they seem to leave only amidst public scandal (eg. Jack Schaap et. al). To say the least, I was intrigued. Others were as well, namely another friend of mine and the former pastor, Aaron Carpenter. Aaron was a pastor (still is), who is now attempting to reach the Seattle area. Aaron weighed in on the side of not leaving church, but understands some of the issues plaguing churches today. He decided to use my discussion as a jumping off point for a blog article. He raises a few questions therein, I’ll attempt to address them all.

Aaron leads off with the main questions at hand, “What is church? Who knows anymore?” I’m not so sure about his answer, however. He assumes that everyone knows it’s not the building, but the people, even if we admit that the term is most often used to refer to a building. I don’t want to pass on this point. Though it’s true most do pay lip-service to the belief that the church is the people, they do not practice that belief. The majority of those in the “church” crowd, both pastors and members, spend a great deal of time telling people that they need to be in church, attend church, go to church or some other form of be in church when the doors are open exhortation. If there is a problem in someone’s life, quite often the comment, “If they were in church this wouldn’t have happened”, is stated. Bottom line, church attendance is primetime preaching. One simply has to attend during the set time, for the set period, at the set place, or he’s not in church. I’m glad that many understand, in word, that the church is not the building, but that’s not what they practice. In this case, actions speak louder than words.

Aaron admits something that people rarely admit, that many are leaving the church. In fact, the exodus is so large that the brand Aaron and I would most closely resemble, Fundamental Baptist, seems set to vanish with our generation. Be honest pastors and church goers. There is an enormous age gap in your congregation. There are those who are 50+, very few 20-50 year olds, and children. I don’t care much for “studies” or “statistics”, but in this case, no matter the philosophical or theological bent, there is near total agreement that once children become 18 year olds they are out of their childhood churches. More damning for the system, is that those people rarely come back, hence the current discussion. A recent article done by shock-columnist Matt Walsh, a Catholic, illustrates the point. Church is boring. It’s not boring because the service is traditional, as he says contemporary services are also boring. So, don’t focus on how the show is run, the show is boring no matter how it’s acted out. There is a deeper, and stolidly neglected, issue here, but more on that later.

I can wholeheartedly understand where Aaron is coming from in his Full Disclosure section. I was there. I was a teacher, coach, youth director, visitation leader… in a church-school. By worldly standards, I was somewhat successful too. One can find my name in the Who’s Who registry twice for my work as an educator. I won two state soccer championships as a coach. I was involved in a vibrant visitation program that, by faulty doctrinal standards, boasted 500+ saved. The youth group I worked in boasted numbers greater than most of the churches still in existence across America. I was set in the Fundamental Baptist Circle. That’s what I knew, it’s how I was raised, it’s who educated me.

Oddly enough, some of the constant praise that is heaped upon Christian educators/leaders goes something like this, “We/They could be doing this somewhere else, for much more money, but chose to serve for much less.” For a while I believed this. I’m sure many others did and do. Aaron alludes to the same thought when he commented about an increase in pay. It’s frankly not true. This is not intended to sound bitter, please do not take it that way. Our education, our work, our life within that circle is only useful within that circle.  When I came to that realization, I was petrified. I knew I had to leave, but fear kept me in the wrong place for at least a year and a half too long. My fears were justified when I resigned my position, took an office job at a startup company that folded two months after I moved to upstate NY , was unemployed for four months, and found a part-time job at Best Buy. After that I moved back home to Virginia to try to reset and start over.

The reality is that all of my education, my BA, my MA, my previous positions did not mean much outside of the circle. If people were honest, they’d admit this too. In fact, Fundamental Baptist schools do realize this, and are now caving under pressure to accredit themselves. It’s an admission of this reality. (See more about what accreditation actually entails here and here). This opens up an entirely different discussion which cannot be handled in this article.

Aaron is to be praised at least for admitting that a “leaving the church as he sees it” viewpoint threatens his work. It is his self-proclaimed vocation. But therein lies the main crux of the institutional church argument. As he says, he’s spent 11 years working for a church, and he’s been paid based upon the premise of I Timothy 5:17. Aaron rightly concludes that according to the “Done” viewpoint his position as a salaried pastor would be abolished. That’s a scary proposition, as I detailed above. He’d have to restart his life in his 30’s, but this time with a family to clothe, feed, and shelter. I appreciate his honesty. I have no other reason but to believe he’s being honest when he says that he shares some of the same concerns offered by the “Done” crowd, even if he finds some of it frustrating (or scary).

Now for the meat. His questions.

How do you practice Ephesians 4:11-16 in your Christian Life? Perhaps I’m not fully following Aaron’s line of thought. Is he saying that Ephesians 4:11-16 can only be accomplished within a local church’s four walls? I’m really not sure. If so, then how much of what is listed in the passage is being done by one man in the institution setting? It seems that Ephesians 4, as well as other passages throughout the New Testament illustrate many people, who all have functions within the church. For instance, the Holy Grail of the “Go To Church” crowd, Hebrews 10:25, states one another. Institutional churches just don’t reach the standard of one another doing the ministry. How does the terrible cliché go? 90% of the work is done by 10% of the people. Isn’t that an illustration of how Ephesians 4 is not being done properly in the institutional setting?

Since the question was, “How does the ‘Done’ crowd do Ephesians 4, I should illustrate how we do it. We do it by actively evangelizing the lost, we do it by actively discipling one another, we do it by actively fellowshipping together. All aspects of Ephesians 4 are covered therein.  The key is that we are all involved, instead of just one of us talking to all of the others. It’s not too hard actually. In fact, it’s only possible in a smaller setting. I used to think that the fact that institutional church failure to do this passage was winked at by God under the “There’s no such thing as a perfect church” comment. The problem is that mindset is damning in that it cheapens Christ’s commands for what the church is and is to be doing. (I use the term church here in the purest Biblical sense of the word, as a body of individual believers serving Christ in communities all over the world).

I must admit that I have no idea where Aaron is coming from by referencing Hebrews 3-4 in a church context. In context the passage is referring to lost Jews, who need to enter into the rest of Christ. It’s all about turning from sin and accepting their Messiah. Forgive my ignorance, Aaron, if you read this, please enlighten me as to why you included this passage.

As for I Corinthians 14, I agree, it is about corporate, mutual member ministry. Again, one another as mentioned in Hebrews 10, which you also reference. I Corinthians 14 can only be done well in smaller settings. Once a certain group size has been exceeded, doing the commands within the group become strained at best. I’ve never seen an institutional church of any size, and I’ve been in both small and mega churches, properly carry out I Corinthians 14 or Hebrews 10.

As for Hebrews 10, I mentioned in my comment thread that this passage has nothing to do with going to church. In context this is part of a whole. It is a message to the Jews (Hence the name of the book), about their need to accept Christ. Church is just not part of the subject matter at all. Hebrews 10 is even less so. Look at how the chapter starts and finishes. It starts with a discussion about the Law, continues with comments about paying for sin, then it goes into an evangelism call in verses 24-25. It is a call for saved Jews to not forsake unsaved Jews, but to compel them to repent and trust in Christ. It is of necessity not a church passage, but a salvation passage. The chapter finishes by strongly encouraging those who know the Bible (Old Testament) to see how Christ fulfills all of those promises, and believe on Him.

Either way, let’s play the Hebrews 10:24-25 game for a second. The passage states –

And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Does everyone in your church exhort each other? It’s not just the pastor’s responsibility. It’s everyone’s responsibility. The modern pulpit/pew system does not allow for one another exhortation. It’s not a command to go to church at all, even out of context. It’s a command on how to be around other believers, once again, out of context. Most churches are filled with gossip, bitterness, and hatred, let alone pride and apathy. In that setting how do those churches fulfill Hebrews 10 or I Corinthians 14? Love? Good Works?

Aaron’s next question is about who does the shepherding for the Done crowd. He cites Acts 20:28-29 and I Peter 5:1-4 as support. Both passages are fun for me.

Acts 20 is Paul’s final words of sorts to the elders at Ephesus, as noted in v. 17.  I Peter also seems to be final words of sorts, for the book at least. The comments are also addressed to elders. Now, the question is, who are the elders? Are they pastors? Let’s use the passage that Aaron cited in I Timothy 5. In context, the passage is written by Paul, an apostle, not a pastor, to Timothy, a pastor, about how to treat Elders within his body of believers. Did you get all of that? According to Aaron’s, and other pastors’, viewpoint, I Timothy 5 is about how pastors should receive double honor (that is a salary in most cases). It’s also about how they, the pastor/elder, should be respected as an authority. But Timothy was the pastor, not an elder. The elders were those within Timothy’s group, both men and women as the passage talks about both genders, who deserved double honor because of the godly lives they lived. (a side note, if elders are pastors, then women pastors are supported by this passage).

One other thing to mention from Acts 20, Paul sets up the way that a ministry worker should support himself in vss. 33-35. He should work. Paul worked, he was a tentmaker, as we know. This exhortation, however, is quite practical in that a ministry worker who takes no money cannot be compromised by making a living by serving Christ. Note Paul’s further comments about work in II Thessalonians 3 as well as how Paul said that his taking money would hinder the gospel’s sake in I Corinthians 9:12. So that leaves me begging the question, why do Pastors take a salary?

I Peter 5 is a bad passage for Aaron to use in terms of vocation, that is, being in the ministry and receiving a paycheck (v2). But let’s put that aside for a second. Peter was an elder, but we never see him as a pastor as such. He is an apostle and certainly an evangelist. He claims to be an elder here as well, and I’m sure that by the time this was written, he was an elder. I say all of that to illustrate that this passage is to older/wiser in Christ people of the church. This is a how to act as an elder exhortation, not a call for pastors to some sort of spiritual authority.

On the same topic of authority Aaron references Hebrews 13:7 and 17. Again, this book is written to the Hebrews, and so much of this chapter is full of Jewish comments. Priests are mentioned, sacrifices are mentioned, the Law in various forms is mentioned. What is not mentioned are pastors. I do understand the idea that the pastor as a ruler seems to fit in here, but it does not anywhere else in the New Testament. That makes me wonder if there is another way that this passage must be viewed. The biggest question for me is that before Christ’s throne is my pastor going to be standing next to me? That’s how some pastors view it, not necessarily Aaron mind you.  The reality is that we will all stand alone before Christ to give an account, so please, don’t think that you and your church will be behind your pastor, who then gives an account. That’s, quite bluntly, nonsense.

Ultimately, and I don’t mean to sound too pious, we all give an account to Christ for what we choose to do for Him. We are guided by the Holy Spirit, as Christ said in John, and as John further expounded upon in I John 2:20 and 27. I don’t need a man to “shepherd” me. That sounds to me like a curiously Catholic trap. Whether or not it was intended to be stated as such.

As for evangelism and further fellowship thereafter. The current church model is horrifically broken, let’s be honest. A typical visitation program has well less than 10% of its members attend. Out those who do attend, they may seek one on one conversations with strangers, but more than likely the idea is to visit those who visited the church service. In so doing a paltry number of people may be reached at all. Of those who “get saved” very few ever attend that church. Even fewer than that are ever “discipled” in any Biblically meaningful way. Witnessing should be one on one, and discipling should also be one on one. We do that. It helps to create very strong ties and much deeper fellowship.

Baptism and “Communion” as you term it are extremely simple. We baptize after we see fruits meet for repentance. Communion for us is so much easier than for those within the institutional setting. We do not fellowship with (knowingly) lost people. We do our best to not invite lost people to fellowship with us at all, based entirely upon the many exhortations to not have fellowship with unfruitful works of darkness, cast out the leaven, etc. that you well know. So, when we partake of Lord’s Supper, it’s a joyous occasion much unlike the somber dirges found within the organ-plagued institutional church.

Those with spiritual gifts are to use them. I’ve touched upon “one another” more than enough already. How do your churches handle them? Do others get to lead the Sunday service, or preach, or teach on Wednesday night?

I confess that I do not understand the point of the “that was then” comments in Aaron’s article. Most often when I hear that comment it is, well that was then in the New Testament, we aren’t in a nation which persecutes Christians anymore, so we can meet freely, openly. Warning! Christians are to be salt and light. They’ve never been accepted by the world. If you feel that we’re free and open to serve Christ, then you’ve never boldly proclaimed the gospel for any meaningful period. Christ promised His followers in John 15 that they SHALL suffer persecution. This illustrates the point that modern American Christianity, which suffers little or no persecution, has lost its savor. That, or Christ is a liar. You choose.

What did weddings and funerals in the Bible look like? Is this even a Biblical argument? Come on now. The lost get married and have funerals in churches all of the time. Cultural norms do not equal Biblical practices. Besides, weddings and funerals within churches as we know them today, though not necessarily evil, is a hold-over from the Catholic Church, who used to institute those things for monetary purposes. (Check Charlemagne and William the Conqueror, both tools of the Papacy, out for something of an idea here).

Mathew 18 and 1 Corinthians 5!? If churches practiced this today, then no church would have more than 15 people therein. I mean, really, truthfully practiced this. Which sins, what level of sin, what excuses for sinning, are given in practicing or not practicing discipline? Let’s be honest, church discipline in the institutional setting is near impossible, which is why it is rarely, if ever done. Don’t kid me, I was a Navy brat, so I’ve been to many churches, north, south, east, and west.  I’ve seen it all, and the exception does not disprove the reality that discipline, if it happens at all, only happens for the “Big” sins, whatever that means. Those sins may go punished, meanwhile all the other “little” sins go unpunished or unnoticed. It’s so easy to hide in the institutional church, that’s why.

Finally, missions is questioned. I don’t want to fellowship with people who don’t have the same zeal for reaching the lost as I do. We seek out places where the lost are – hint, that’s anywhere, and, yes, sometimes we do what Paul did, which is, visit religious establishments to pull some out. It’s not hard to find lost people, which really makes me wonder why Aaron asks the question in the first place. What’s hard, is finding people who are truly saved with whom to fellowship.

Aaron, this is to you directly now. I’m glad that you’re angered with the things you mentioned in the end of your article. I’m more hopeful that your church does not experience those things. I can understand why you’re not “done yet.” I believe I’ve answered most of your questions, and perhaps raised a few more. I think you’ll honestly consider them, research them, and pray to God for wisdom.  You asked at the end, “what are you prepared to do to help the rest of us?” Well, for one, I opened up the conversation. I raised the issues, answered your questions, illustrated what I perceive to be flaws (if my narrow viewpoint is worth anything), and tried to illustrate a better way to do all the things you mentioned.  My question for you is can you honestly, biblically support church as it is being done now? I fear you may not, because you have a lot to lose. I no longer have anything to lose, it has already all been lost. That has allowed me much greater freedom to serve Christ.